Speaker A [00:00:08]:
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Aim from the Heart podcast. And this is a very special episode where we have a very special guest, Dupay Witherek. And Dupay is a alcohol free wellness and transformational coach who runs a business called Thrive Alcohol Free and also has written a book called a cocktail of clarity and has a podcast called Thrive Alcohol Free. You can find her instagram at Thrive alcohol free. And the reason that I wanted to have the conversation with Dupe is that I feel like, obviously, our goal on aim from the heart is to talk about how to manifest our dream lives by living in integrity with ourselves, by living our purpose. And something that I don't even talk about that much on my own personal journey is the role that alcohol and my decision to not drink plays in where I am now. And honestly, I feel like this is such an important conversation to have because in our society, we are so brainwashed with the idea that drinking is normal. Drinking is elegant.
Speaker A [00:01:08]:
Drinking is fun. Drinking is sophisticated. In the coaching industry, we constantly see pictures of, like, champagne bottles and glasses of champagne as if it's the most glamorous, fabulous thing in the world. But I think there's another conversation to be had around it, and it's not about, like, are you an alcoholic or not? Or is it dangerous or not? It's a different conversation. So, Dupay, I am excited to have you here. So if you're, like, listening to this, you're like, well, I don't have a problem with drinking. Stick around anyway, because I think that there might be something for you in this. No matter where you are with your drinking, no matter if you're, know, thinking that you have a problem or you don't have a problem, stick around, because I think this will be great.
Speaker A [00:01:42]:
Dupe, can I ask you, first of all, just tell me and the listeners a little bit just about you and your story and what brought you to this work.
Speaker B [00:01:51]:
Well, thank you so much, Diane, for having me on the podcast. I'm excited to be here, and it's lovely to meet. Yeah, I mean, I love what you've just said, because a lot of people, when you say you don't drink alcohol, a lot of people jump to a conclusion of sorts, and there seems to be a huge stigma around it. And it seems that if you don't drink, you've obviously hit rock bottom or you had a problem, or maybe you're pregnant, or maybe you're just boring or whatever, or that's a religious reason or whatever. There's always a conclusion. And it's normally the negative, more on the negative side than it is on the other things, just because, as you say, it's so ingrained in our society. And I was probably similar. If I look back, I would say I was a normal drinker.
Speaker B [00:02:42]:
I didn't drink too excess. I would just have a glass when as and when I wanted to, especially towards the end, I didn't really enjoy it as much. And I found I was only drinking because everyone around me expects you to drink. And then you'd sort of think, well, that didn't really settle on me. But if I go back in my teens and like to party and have fun, and so drinking was probably a social thing. And yes, I would go out and drink with my friends and enjoy myself and have some really. I've probably got some really fun memories. In hindsight, there were some memories that weren't so fun.
Speaker B [00:03:22]:
But on the whole, it was pretty good. It was a good thing. It was just part of growing up. It was being an adult, you have a drink. And then in my late 20s, there was a bit of a tragedy in our family. And so I found that actually, in order to cope with the grief, having a drink was a way of doing that. So I probably started drinking more at home and drinking a little bit just to numb out the pain. But again, I never thought it was a problem.
Speaker B [00:03:54]:
I just thought it was normal. I would say the majority of people are normal drinkers. I use the term gray area drinker. So a gray area drinker is effectively, if you're not t total, if you're not abstaining from alcohol and you're not rock bottom, you're a gray area drinker. So that's a spectrum of one to ten, and you could be anywhere on that spectrum. And regardless, and to your point, if you're only drinking like, one glass a week, but it's affecting you in some way. If you think your life can be better, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, physically, in all ways, in some way, by not drinking alcohol, then you can give yourself permission to choose to not drink. And so I was very fortunate.
Speaker B [00:04:39]:
I managed to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in March 2020. So, literally, I climbed a mountain. I summited on the 5 march, came down and the world changed. And so a week later, we were in lockdown. It was mad. And so I did this back in.
Speaker A [00:04:58]:
The UK, just to be clear. Did you go back to the UK?
Speaker B [00:05:00]:
I got back to the UK. I got back to the UK, and then I got back to UK a week later, we were working from home, and then there was this official lockdown, and then we all know where that led. And so I had done this massive thing, and it was also. 2020 was the year of my 40th birthday, so that's why I wanted to do something big, like lime Mankilla Manjaro. And I didn't appreciate. Well, I did. It was an amazing experience, epic experience. But it had a fundamental.
Speaker B [00:05:26]:
I had a shift, I think, when I did this six day hike, and I just kept thinking, there's more. I saw the world differently. I obviously wasn't drinking for those six days, and I just felt there was more that I could be doing, more that there's. And I don't know if it was entering a new decade. I was about to enter a new decade and everything else going on, but I got back, and then obviously Covid happened, and it was sort of like that completely just went because we were just trying to work out life and what we're doing and what's happening around. My daughter was six at the time. So then you had the whole home schooling thing. I was working.
Speaker B [00:06:06]:
I found I ended up working a lot more because we were all on Zoom and just felt like everyone was just trying to justify work. And so I was on zooms from like 07:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m. Wasn't really looking after myself. All the mummy memes and WhatsApp groups and memes that we were getting were all about, oh, have a drink, you deserve it. And so it just got to the point where I was working, doing a bit of homeschooling. My husband was very good, actually. I'll probably give him the credit.
Speaker B [00:06:35]:
He did most of the homeschooling. And then I would get to the end of the day and it would be a reward. You have to have a drink to sort of just relax. And so it became a bit more of a habit. And so then it got to November, and I thought, I don't know why I'm doing this. And I think in the back of my head, I'd been thinking, I wasn't really able to celebrate the whole Kilimanjaro thing, but I had it in my head that this was a big thing. And actually I kept going back to, there's more, there's more. And so there was an opportunity.
Speaker B [00:07:08]:
My church was doing, like a give something up for 21 days. And so I said, I'm going to not drink for 21 days. And during those 21 days, a few things happened that were just I would say I felt it was something inside me, something bigger than me saying, maybe this is something you want to do for a bit longer, because it might be a good thing in some way. And I was convinced. 21 days in November. So it was coming up to Christmas and new year. There was no way I was going to not drink over Christmas and new year. I mean, of course you have champagne and you have this and you have that and you have all your traditions.
Speaker B [00:07:47]:
So it was like, well, I'm only going to do. I'm only going to do the 21 days, and then I'll moderate or I'll think about what I want to do and whether I just drink on weekends or whatever. But then I've discovered a couple of things. I discovered Ted talks and a podcast, and this whole community of people who were enjoying life without alcohol. They chosen to do this. Oh, my goodness. They decided they hadn't hit a rock bottom. It wasn't like there was any issue.
Speaker B [00:08:17]:
They were just what I would describe as a normal drinker, like me. But they were then talking about this pink cloud and all the things that had happened since and how they were now doing x, Y and z, and their lives had, even though they weren't bad before. And my life, I had a very good life. It wasn't negative in any way, but it sort of just upped them in some way. They hit this 2.0 version of themselves. And I was fascinated by that because I'd never heard of it. As far as I was concerned, people that didn't drink, I had all the preconceptions that whoever's listening probably has as well, if they're still drinking, that if you don't drink, you've hit rock bottom. You're boring.
Speaker B [00:09:01]:
Gosh, what do you do with yourself if you're not drinking? How do you socialize? How do you live?
Speaker A [00:09:07]:
It is like, what? I'm scottish, what's wrong with you? Take a drink.
Speaker B [00:09:13]:
Exactly. And I'd be the one to say, go on, you know you want one. So it was interesting. And then I read about an alcohol free fizz, an alcohol free champ sparkling wine, really? And I suddenly had this thought that I'd seen it. I felt like I knew it and I'd seen it. And I thought, I kept thinking, why do I feel like I know this? And the person who was writing was a writer of wine, fine wines, and said, it's the best alcohol free fizz that they've ever tasted. They were raving about it. And then I remembered I'd been given a bottle and you're probably thinking, what? How did that happen? And in that summer, someone had come to our house for lunch on a weekend and brought this bottle of alcohol free fizz.
Speaker B [00:10:05]:
And I'd looked at the person and was like, what the hell? Especially as they then proceeded to drink my wine. Why have you given me this? Anyway, I shoved it in the cupboard. Little did I know, a few months later I'd read this article and then I started rummaging in this cupboard and at the back of the cupboard was this bottle of fizz. And I thought, well, it's going to be awful. It's not going to be very nice. Anyway, I tasted it, it was good. And I thought, so, hold on a minute. I can have an adult drink, what I perceive as an adult drink.
Speaker B [00:10:41]:
It has no consequences. It's actually quite good for you. It was vegan friendly, gluten free, halal, it was all sorts of things, very little sugar, and I can feel good the next day. And there are all these benefits of not drinking that I'm hearing about. Why don't I just go for 30 days? 21 to 30 days. That didn't seem too much. I'll do that. And then I joined the community and found a community and I did 60 days.
Speaker B [00:11:11]:
And in those 60 days, I then decided that I was going to train as a coach. And I started a coaching qualification. I started to do yoga. A month after that, I started running. Then some things happened with my old place of work where I was working and I thought, actually, I feel like I need to look, explore new opportunities. And all these opportunities started coming. And so there was a whole thing of I'd stopped drinking and suddenly my world had opened up and I'd found new passions. And long story short, I just felt that this was a secret that I didn't know about and I wanted everyone to know about it.
Speaker B [00:11:56]:
And so I did my transformational coaching qualification and then I thought, what am I going to niche into? And as I was going through my own journey, I just thought, this is what I want to do. I want to help other women discover that actually, if they ditch drinking, and for me, that's just the first part of it, get rid of that. And then it's the what next? It's how do you then fundamentally thrive in all areas of your life? And that's what I help women with now.
Speaker A [00:12:21]:
Oh, my gosh, I love it. I resonate with so much of this because, funnily, I stopped drinking as well. Like in November, when I stopped and I stopped. Also, I decided not to drink for three months at the beginning when I said, I'm not going to drink. I'm going to do an experiment and I'm going to not drink for three months. And I had gone to that thing of the habit of drinking every evening, really. I had a young child and it was that sort of wine o'clock thing. How's your day? My husband would come home from work, how's your day been? I'm like, get the glass of wine out, right? Like, I deserve it.
Speaker A [00:12:54]:
And it was totally that. When I stopped for three months, I had the same thing of being worried about Christmas and new year, because I was like, this is November, and that means I'm actually committing to not drinking over Christmas and new year. And that was pretty scary. Also that year we were going on vacation to Mexico for new year. And I was like, going on holiday and not drinking. Like, no margaritas by the pool. What is be like, this is going to be weird. A new year without a glass of champagne or a drink? What is that? But I really had made my mind up, and it was for me on the new year's Eve.
Speaker A [00:13:30]:
I remember that. So by then I was nearly two months into it, and I remember being at the beach with my husband and I was saying, I feel great. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm not going to drink this whole year. I'm not saying never, but I don't think I'm going to drink this year because I just feel good and why would I not drink, actually? What are we missing? I'm just wondering for you, when you decided to stop for 21 days, did that feel daunting to you in any way? Or was it just like, oh, yeah, no problem. I stopped for 21 days. Was there any part of you that was like, okay, that feels challenging?
Speaker B [00:14:09]:
Well, it's interesting. So my husband's perspective was, you'll do it. You're going to do it. That's what he's told me since he knew I was going to do it. But in my head, I'd tried dry January before. I'd said I'd stopped, not drink for lengths and things like that. And I'd get to probably week one and then think, well, I can drink on the weekends and I just won't drink in the week. And then before you know it, you've just sort of not done it at all.
Speaker B [00:14:33]:
You've got to sort of the following Wednesday. And you're like, yeah, this is going to happen. So I'd never really managed to do a 30 day or 31 day or 40 day challenge. So I was a bit nervous that I wouldn't do the 21 days. But what actually happened the day before, for some reason, I mean, I look back and I'm like, why did I do that the day before? I thought, well, I might as well have a last hurrah before the 21 days. And I opened a bottle of champagne. I opened a bottle of champagne. That's such a waste, really.
Speaker B [00:15:12]:
Anyway, I opened a bottle of champagne, poured a glass, and I literally had probably a sip, maybe two sips, and my stomach started to churn. And it just made me feel, this is the right time. There's something, not that I'm just. I knew I wasn't, as I said, I wasn't enjoying it. It was just a habit that I had gotten into. And it's because it had been years and years. Alcohol is fundamentally an addictive substance. And so regardless of who you are, where you're from, how rich or poor, whatever it is, whatever your background, culturally, anyone can get to the point where they find alcohol is a habit, at least a habit, because it becomes more addictive as you go on.
Speaker B [00:15:58]:
And maybe when you're in your don't really feel it, but especially if you've had sort of 2030, 40 years of drinking, whatever, that even ten years of drinking, it then does start to affect you. And it starts. It affects your body in so many ways. And we can go into that if you would like. But for me, it was telling me, okay, something here needs to shift. Because if I'm having a sip and it's making me feel like that, it's not agreeing with my body and it's not making me feel good. And I literally just poured the rest down the sink. And then I thought, well, actually, that's telling me I do need to stop.
Speaker B [00:16:34]:
So in my head, I was nervous, a bit nervous about it, wasn't sure if I'd actually do it, but I feel like I had this real sense of. And it had been saying to me for ages, just take a break. Take a break and see what happens. Trust me and see what happens. And the truth will set you free. Came to me as well. And that was really weird because I was like, what truth? What free? What are you talking about? I haven't got an issue. There's no problem here.
Speaker B [00:17:03]:
I'm a normal drinker. And what do you mean, the truth will set me free if I stop drinking? Anyway, didn't know any of it. And so I thought, well, I'll do it. And the first couple of weeks were pretty miserable, pretty boring. I was drinking tea, coffee, water. That was pretty much all I was drinking. And I was going to bed early because I didn't want to. And I was bored.
Speaker B [00:17:29]:
I felt bored. I was like, I've got what? So I end up reading and then listening to podcasts. That's when I then discovered that. But I did find it really unsettling. It was because you suddenly have all this time, and you don't appreciate how much mental capacity alcohol takes. You think you're just drinking a drink. You think it's just a drink, and it isn't. It isn't about just going to the restaurant or the bar and having a glass of wine or getting to the end of the evening, the end of the day, and thinking, I'll have a glass of wine.
Speaker B [00:18:03]:
It's all the noise in your head before, after, during the next day, when you're feeling not so great, you've got that foggy head feeling, because you're not 100%. Regardless of how much you drink, you're never going to be 100%. It's always sort of in your system as well, because it takes longer than we think to process it. And so when you're constantly sort of topping up each day, you're never really in a clear minded.
Speaker A [00:18:30]:
I love what you mentioned before, too, about this negotiation. Right? Previously, you would stop, but then you go, oh, well, I'll just have one at the weekend, right? I'll just have one, right? And for me, this was, like, a huge part of deciding to stop completely when I did, because I also had that voice in my head for many months saying, diane, if you really want to achieve your dreams, if you really want to go to the next level in your life, you got to stop drinking. I kept hearing this voice, and I was like, go away. Leave me alone. I'm not over drinking. I'm not getting drunk. It's just a glass of chardonnay, right? Leave me alone. And that's what I was saying to that voice.
Speaker A [00:19:07]:
But the thing is, and it's just interesting to that thing, because one of my real realizations about this is I was constantly negotiating with it, right? It's that sort of thing beforehand, because if I didn't negotiate with alcohol, alcohol would knock me down, basically, that's how I felt, right? So my negotiations were like, it's okay to have one. It's okay for me to have one, right? And then it's like, it's okay to have it. The weekend, it's okay to have it. And it's like constantly having these negotiations about what's okay and what's too much but what's okay if I'm going to this party, okay, you can go to the party. You can have one, but don't have more than one. But then you get to the party, it's like, well, if I have one, but maybe one and a half, like just a little, right? And you're constantly having these negotiations and waking up the next day thinking, oh, why did I have two? I said that was only going to have one. And for me, actually, one of the most empowering shifts that can occur when we decide to just look at this honestly and set aside all the stigmas and whatever is just like reclaiming our power. Because you're just giving your power to alcohol every day.
Speaker A [00:20:08]:
It's like this thing has power over you and that's why you're having to negotiate with it. And it's like negotiating with, the way I see it is it's like negotiating with an abusive partner or something. It's like, oh, no, but the partner is good to me, they're really good to me. They love me, they really look after me, they make me feel good, they love me. It's so nice. But anytime that I sort of take my guard down, they knock me out because that's how I felt with alcohol, that I had to be guarded with it, because if I wasn't guarded with it, I'd end up drinking too much and then I'd wake up feeling shit and being really out of integrity and really feeling sick or feeling just not good in myself and being in that cycle. And it's like, okay, but why do we keep, in your opinion, why are we so obsessed? Why is society so obsessed with alcohol being good? It's the only drug in our society where you have to explain not taking it. People still think you're weird.
Speaker A [00:21:02]:
If you go to a dinner party and you're like, I don't drink. And you try to do it subtly, I actually now give people, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that too. Let's talk about the social aspects of it. But why do you think that is that alcoholis is so it's normal and not drinking is still not normal?
Speaker B [00:21:25]:
It's fascinating to me, and I think it's just the way we have all been. So it's just ingrained in our society. That's fundamentally what it is. If you look at any tv programs, films, you go on to Netflix. Anything you watch, you'll see people drinking wine and whiskey and everyone glamorizing it. Adverts at Christmas, at least here in the UK, you go into a supermarket and it's just there, it's constantly in your head. And I think even with having a nine year old daughter now she's nearly ten, I'm really mindful that as a child, you saw that alcohol, for me, you saw that's how adults relaxed, or that's how they had enjoyed themselves. When we went to parties or get togethers, it was just there.
Speaker B [00:22:24]:
And that's what adults do. And then you go to university. For me, I went to university and that's where my drinking really started. I wouldn't say I drank much before that. I'd probably tried a cider or two, but I was more focused on studying at the time. And then I got to university and I was like, oh, fresher's week. And you have a whole week where you're applied alcohol and everything is around drinking, and you go on these pub crawls and you do this and you that, and it's a way of socializing and relaxing and letting your guard down and just feeling like you can cope with life. And we've also been told a lot of things that are just simply not true.
Speaker B [00:23:06]:
I believed red wine is good for your heart, so a glass of red wine a day was fine because it's good for your heart. We've been told that alcohol helps.
Speaker A [00:23:16]:
Can you just clarify, is it not good for your heart? What's going on here?
Speaker B [00:23:21]:
It's not good for you in any way.
Speaker A [00:23:24]:
I still believe that, by the way. I mean, I didn't care about it because I was like, the best way that. And there's so many other ways for me to.
Speaker B [00:23:31]:
You can just have a blueberry or a grape. You don't need to drink to get the antioxidant. Antioxidants that people say that you get from red wine. It's lie. People say it helps you sleep. It's the worst thing for your sleep. It reduces your cycles, REM cycles, which is your effects of your deep sleep, where you really get that rest. So even if you have a glass, it's going to reduce the number of the sleep cycles.
Speaker B [00:23:59]:
And that means you wake up feeling not rested. You also wake up in the middle of the night as well. I'm sure a lot of people do this, they'll wake up at three or four in the morning and then start berating themselves and realizing, because you just don't have a good night's sleep. The other thing that is really I wasn't aware of is that alcohol actually exacerbates anxiety, depression, stress. It doesn't help you relax, it doesn't help you to help you in any way. And then, from a gut perspective, it is really bad for your gut. And then, obviously, your liver is trying to process all the other things, like your processed foods and the climate pollution that comes through your body and everything else. It's trying to process that putting alcohol on top of it is working.
Speaker B [00:24:49]:
Even your liver is working. Your body's working really hard and it shrinks the brain. There's so many things that it does that are just not good. And if alcohol was introduced today, in 2024, and it didn't exist, it would be classed as a class a drug based on the harm, based on what it actually does to the body. And fundamentally, if all of that isn't enough, fundamentally, alcohol is ethanol, and ethanol is what we clean our houses with and we fill our cars up with. So if you can imagine, and this is what, something that hit me really hard when I first stopped, when I said I'd take a break, I think it was probably a month or two in, I saw a picture of a woman drinking out of a petrol can, out of a fuel can, and obviously she wasn't literally, it was for effect, but that's effectively what we're doing. We're drinking petrol or fuel. And surely that can't be good for organic.
Speaker A [00:26:15]:
We were walking through the airport the other week, my kids and I, and obviously, you come through the duty free store to get to the gate, you have to walk through the store. And those alcohol bottles, my son's like, oh, they're so beautiful. And I was like, they really are. It's incredible how they make it just so stunning. And I feel like the conditioning, it's so deep. And this is why I'm so here for this conversation, because I just feel like we're just so deeply ingrained in this idea that it is normal, that it is a normal part of adult life, that if you have a problem with alcohol, you have a problem, right? Alcohol isn't the problem, you're the problem. Right? You have a problem and you're either a normal drinker or you're a problem drinker. And a problem drinker is somebody who can't control it and who's going to hit rock bottom.
Speaker A [00:26:58]:
And a normal drinker is somebody who controls it. Yeah.
Speaker B [00:27:01]:
It's everyone, for everyone.
Speaker A [00:27:03]:
We just control our drinking. Drinking is good, and drinking is happy, and drinking is fun, and drinking is glamorous and all the things that we tell ourselves that drinking is. And personally, I have to say, I was so ingrained in that.
Speaker B [00:27:15]:
Absolutely.
Speaker A [00:27:16]:
When I was in my twenty s, I started doing yoga, and I really got into yoga in a deep way and into meditation. And I became a student of Tikna Han, this vietnamese Zen monk. And I spent a lot of time in his monastery. And one of his things was one of the mindfulness trainings. The ethical codes was like, not drinking alcohol. And I really struggled with, like, I remember somebody once asked, know, because his monastery is in France, in the Bordeaux region, because he was exiled from Vietnam during the war, so he had set up a monastery there. And we were there in Bordeaux region, surrounded by vineyards, and somebody asked, they said, I know you say don't drink alcohol, but in our culture, it's normal. In our culture, it's a pleasure.
Speaker A [00:28:00]:
Right? In our culture, is it really so wrong to have one glass of wine? And he said, if you look deeply at that glass of wine, you will see suffering. Right. And it really stuck with me. And at the time, though, I wasn't ready to hear it at the time, I was still like, I get it, but also, it could be a good time, too. And I think having these conversations of just, like, saying, just for people to be able to look at it in a different. To just take yourself out of that conditioning of where we think it's so beautiful and glamorous and fun and really question it, I just feel is a good thing, and it doesn't matter if you end up saying, like, actually, I do feel comfortable with it. I don't lose my power to it. I feel in integrity with it.
Speaker A [00:28:47]:
It feels good to me. I feel like I'm living my best life with it. Great. If there's anything in you that feels like maybe I don't feel 100% in integrity with it, maybe I don't feel entirely empowered with it, maybe I don't feel like this is the best choice for my body, my health, then if somebody's in that position, what would you recommend is their sort of next steps? What would you say to anybody who's listening to this is like, I'm starting to question how I do drink or my relationship with alcohol. What would you recommend they do?
Speaker B [00:29:19]:
Yeah, take a break. Just take a break. And it could be. You said you did three months. That's a lot to a lot of people. I did a 21 day break. I have a 21 day kickstart challenge that I do and where we really explore what alcohol is and what alcohol isn't, and you sort of get that mindset. But also think about creating an alcohol free toolkit, which are things that you can do now that now you're not drinking, you can actually find new hobbies, passions, et cetera.
Speaker B [00:29:54]:
So we talk about that. How do you tackle alcohol free firsts, et cetera? So I'd certainly say take a break or 21 days, 30 days, 60 days, whatever it is, and be experimental. Look at it as an experiment. And never, don't say I'm never drinking again. I don't think that's helpful. And it will also, I didn't say that. And I know that I could have a drink tomorrow. I choose to have a drink tomorrow because I know everything about it.
Speaker B [00:30:24]:
I'm like, why would I do that to myself? And fundamentally, I also think from a manifestation perspective from really having that connection with whatever it is you're connected with. For me, it's God, but for others having that connection and really hearing from the Holy Spirit, for me, it's been amazing. It's changed my whole faith journey and spiritual journey. So I would say take a break, and then during that time, watch yourself and look at other people and really think about why one do I want to take a break? So know your why start off with that, but then also think about what is it that alcohol gives you versus what it is you think it, you know, what do you think it gives you? Why do you like it? But then why don't you like it as well and write about it, journal and just sort of make a note of those things. And then also think about how do you feel each day? How have you felt? What good thing has happened from it the day that maybe is due to you not drinking, or what are you proud of for not drinking? And just monitor it and look at it as an experiment. And then also read. There's so many resources. You could either read a book, you could listen to podcasts.
Speaker B [00:31:43]:
There are lots of podcasts out there. Mine's thrive alcohol free. But you can listen to any podcast and just hear your book.
Speaker A [00:31:49]:
You have a book, right?
Speaker B [00:31:50]:
Yeah. And my book is a cocktail of clarity. So that's my book.
Speaker A [00:31:57]:
What is the book like? Is it practical advice about how to do it?
Speaker B [00:32:03]:
It takes you through three stages, from foundations to first to freedom, and it is interweaved. It's my story. But it has lots of tips and tricks and recipes and, say, mocktail recipes. It has breathing exercises. Talk about values. There are various exercises you can do along the way. At the end of each chapter, you have questions and an action to do as well. So it's a really practical guide as well as just understanding a gray area.
Speaker B [00:32:38]:
Drinker's perspective. Someone who hasn't hit rock bottom, who is like you, I would imagine, who's listening. Just someone who's a normal drinker, who's decided to take a break. And it's my journey as I. I feel that would be a good start.
Speaker A [00:33:01]:
As a cocktail of clarity.
Speaker B [00:33:05]:
Cocktail of clarity, yeah. And you can get it on Amazon, paperback and kindle because I feel that.
Speaker A [00:33:11]:
When you do make this decision, it's one of these things because the flow of our society is so much in the favor of alcohol. Right. Like, everything is normalizing alcohol and carrying you down that river. When you decide to take a break, you need to get some tools and you need to get some support because it's not easy, like you mentioned before, that you had done it before but never gone past a certain date. I don't even know. I'm trying to think. I stopped when I was pregnant.
Speaker B [00:33:39]:
Yeah, I didn't drink when I was pregnant as well.
Speaker A [00:33:41]:
I'm just like, reflecting on my previous times. I think those are the only times. I mean, with my first child, I actually probably didn't drink for about a year after he was born, too. I kept it going for quite a long time. And it's incredible that I didn't actually get the memo, just like, stay off it then because life was better. But somehow I got sort of drawn back into it with my second. I stopped during the pregnancy, but I think I started drinking wine pretty soon afterwards. I didn't have the same sort of dedication to the idea, but beyond that, I don't think I ever did any.
Speaker A [00:34:19]:
I'm just thinking, I don't think I ever maybe like a short, very short detox. But I think it's that thing that I think I was scared to because I thought I would fail, like the idea of dry January or something when I was a drinker, that I wouldn't even do it because I thought, I'm not going to do that because I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to make it. So, like, cutting myself out. And I would just say for anyone, if you're thinking about doing it, set yourself up for success by reading books, getting into podcasts, listening to it, because it really will fuel you. I know that I did this when I decided to stop for three months. Like, I pulled on a lot of resources because even though it wasn't. Was it hard? I don't know that it was hard.
Speaker A [00:35:03]:
I threw everything at it because I was so determined. So just what you're saying. I was listening to podcasts. I had some sort of subconscious hypnosis reprogramming that I listened to every night. Like the stop drinking hypnosis. Right. I was reading books I obviously didn't know about. Well, your book probably wasn't written.
Speaker A [00:35:24]:
Yeah, but I read some books. I just threw it all because I was like, I've got to do this. I'm doing this. And I do think it takes that level of determination, because if you're sort of a little bit half hearted, like, I might just stop drinking for a few weeks and see what happens. But you're not really determined. You'll probably go to your sister's birthday party and have a glass of wine or whatever.
Speaker B [00:35:46]:
It's really easy to do that because it is a really uncommon thing to do. People just don't choose to do this, and that's why I'm on such a mission to get the message out there to as many people as I can, because I do think, fundamentally, by getting rid of this one thing, it opens up the doors to so many possibilities, and most importantly, to you becoming your authentic self, your true authentic self who can really be present and notice and just be. And with that.
Speaker A [00:36:23]:
Yeah. Something that I really noticed when I stopped drinking was how much more present I was to the people around me, because I realized previously, and it's funny, I was, like, nervous about going to social events initially without having the crutch of alcohol. And I realized previously how, because I'm basically an introvert, although I might not seem it. And I realized that previously, what I would do at social events was immediately look for the wine and actually spend quite a lot of my time at a social event looking for the wine. Right. I'd be, like, halfway through the glass thinking, oh, wonder where the wine waiter is. Do you know what I mean? Already? Right. And is it too soon, though? Should I have another one? This is my brain, right? While I'm actually talking to somebody.
Speaker A [00:37:07]:
And so I'm not talking to them. I'm not present to them. I'm actually present to the alcohol. I really didn't realize this so fully until I stopped drinking. And I don't know. Just when you said that thing about presence, because I feel like one of the most beautiful gifts that I did not anticipate from not drinking is I actually enjoy social occasions so much more in a very real way and it's completely different and I feel present. I'm awake to them, I'm there, I'm there to the people, I'm there to the moment and I'm not actually missing it because I'm looking for the wine bar.
Speaker B [00:37:44]:
It's so true. And I think that's the case for so many things. You talked about your first holiday, going on your first holiday and holiday alcohol free holidays are just amazing. Again, I just didn't appreciate that people are up at six walking along the beach and just really quite. It's a peaceful. It can be peaceful. Just stunning sunset sunrises, just really seeing that water and the clearness of it and just being wherever the beautiful place is, taking in all the sights and actually just not thinking, right, where's the nearest bar that we're going? That's what holidays were. If you think about a holiday, what were you planning? Oh, I want to go to this restaurant because it's got nice reviews and it's got nice wine and I'm going to go to this bar because that's on the beach.
Speaker B [00:38:37]:
Exactly. And it was all revolved around that. So actually going and seeing waterfalls and actually seeing them and not waking up feeling hungover and then going on an excursion and thinking, oh, I really can't be bothered, where's the nearest bar? So I could just sit and have a drink. And that's what holidays were, holidays.
Speaker A [00:38:57]:
And we can have a drink in the middle of the day, right, day drinking.
Speaker B [00:39:00]:
I get to the airport at like seven in the morning and I must have a glass of champagne because that's how you start a holiday. In hindsight, for me, I just think, wow, I'm not enjoying it. I spoke to someone the other day, they said they got off the plane the first time they went on a holiday and hadn't had a drink and weren't drinking, and they said, oh, my goodness, it's amazing. They said. I thought that every time you get to a new country, it was like the humidity or it was the thing, but it was always a little bit foggy and I thought that was just the country. I'd been drinking on the plane before I got there, and so they were just blown away by this beauty that was there and the heat and whatever. But it is shocking, actually, how much alcohol has taken over the world. And even countries that didn't used to drink or it wasn't really as present are now thinking, because the western world, because the US or the UK, whatever, we need to do it, because we are now up and coming country.
Speaker B [00:40:18]:
We're doing really well. So all the people in those countries are saying, well, we need to have parties and they have to have champagne.
Speaker A [00:40:25]:
It's aspirational. Absolutely. It's aspirational. Right? Those bottles that look so seductive and seem so incredible. It's just a lie, though. I love that you touched on this thing just now. And you mentioned in your book it's foundations, births and freedom, which I freaking love, because I just believe the word that I tend to use isn't sober. If people say, I don't call myself sober, sober sounds so depressing.
Speaker A [00:40:48]:
Sober for me is like, in the sober light of morning. Here's a sobering fact. It sounds awful to me. I'm like, I'm not sober. I'm alcohol free.
Speaker B [00:40:56]:
Yeah.
Speaker A [00:40:57]:
The word for me is free, because I'm like, when you pass this, when you go through, and I love that you say foundations first and then freedom, I get it right, because I'm like, when you pass those and you actually embody this as a lifestyle, you feel free on a level you've never understood. And when I see people on those planes drinking that drink or on the holiday, at the bar or whatever, my heart kind of breaks them, because I'm like, you're a prisoner. You're caught in a cage, and you think you're free, and you think you're having this great time and you're not.
Speaker B [00:41:32]:
Yeah, exactly. I can't remember who said it, but someone described it. Do you remember the film limitless with. Anyway, this guy takes this limitless pill, and he's clear. He's walking around in a bit of a grayness. And then as soon as he has this pill, everything comes alive. He's quicker at things, he's able to do things. He's just on fire.
Speaker B [00:41:58]:
And you don't need a pill. Just stop drinking. That's exactly what you get from not it.
Speaker A [00:42:05]:
You know, one of the people who sort of guided me a little bit or who helped me make the shift is a coach called Bruke Castillo. I don't know if you know her. She has a podcast called the Life Coach School, and she did a series of episodes on the podcast about controlling your drinking that I really listened to. And she had stopped drinking, and she was a real inspiration to me, actually, to explore not drinking, and she had a course about not drinking that, as I said, that really helped me. But one of her things that she said is, you don't realize that you're drinking in order to escape the prison every day. Right. Like, you have that drink so that you can escape the prison, she said, but you don't realize that the prison is the drink. Actually, never go back into the prison.
Speaker A [00:42:51]:
Right. Like, is the alcohol that's holding you there. Basically.
Speaker B [00:42:56]:
That'S exactly what I teach, because fundamentally, it's not the drink that you want. What is the feeling you're trying to create? Or what's the feeling you're trying to escape from? That's fundamentally what it is. And if you can answer those questions, you can then do something differently to taking a drink, which is the automatic. It's all because of our subconscious.
Speaker A [00:43:24]:
That is so powerful, though. That is so powerful. And that makes me think of, I once heard this quote, and it was like the opposite of sobriety. The opposite of sobriety. The opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, it's connection. You've heard that. I think it's maybe Gabriel Marte. When I heard that, that changed my life, honestly, it was one of those things because I realized for me in my 20s, where I had very unhealthy drinking, right.
Speaker A [00:43:55]:
Like binge drinking and that whole sort of thing. And I realized in reflection, it was all about loneliness and seeking connection. Right. It was so obvious that that's what I was seeking through that. And that was the only way that I knew to find it. Like, go to a pub, right. And you'll find other people to drink with. Right.
Speaker A [00:44:17]:
And you have connection. Very powerful to know that what you're seeking is not the drink, it's something else just before, because we'll be wrapping up shortly. But there's one thing I want to ask just about the social aspect, because I think something that scares people about not drinking is, like, how do you deal with the girls night out or a dinner party with your neighbors or whatever, right. How do you do that if you're not drinking? And how do you navigate or parties or Christmas celebrations or family things or whatever, if normally a big part of it has been alcohol? So do you have any words or thoughts on that?
Speaker B [00:45:01]:
Yeah, and there's a whole section on my book where I cover lots of different potential firsts. So, yeah, if you want to find out more, go and do that. But fundamentally, it's being prepared, it's planning, and it's one knowing what you're going to say when people ask you and be very confident in that answer. And if your early days, you can lie. I don't encourage lying, but you can tell a little white lie. You could say, I'm on antibiotics, I'm doing a health thing, I'm doing whatever. If you don't want to make a big deal about it, you can start with that. But if alcohol free drinks don't trigger you, if you don't think you're going to be triggered by them, I certainly suggest there's such a range.
Speaker B [00:45:42]:
Now, if I look back three and a bit years ago, there was hardly anything, and now there is such a range in most places you can get something. And so if you're going to a bar with your girlfriends, say, check before and see what they've got in terms of alcohol free. If they haven't got anything, think about a mocktail that they can maybe make for you, or a lime and soda, because that can look like a gin and tonic, really. So again, just think about what you're going to drink, what you're going to say, what you're going to drink, and you have to make this a non negotiable, really. So if in your mind you're really clear on your why, and you're clear that this is a non negotiable, when people then say to you, oh, go on, have one, the easiest thing to do is think about your why, know that why you're doing it, but then just change the subject really quickly. Just say, no, I'm quite happy I'm going to have this. Because you already planned it. You already know what you're going to drink.
Speaker B [00:46:47]:
I'm going to have this. Yeah, I will have a drink. And you don't have to say, I'm not drinking, just say, I will have a drink, I'll have a this or I have a that. Because then that also psychologically doesn't make you feel like you're depriving yourself. You are still having a drink. It just happens to not be an alcoholic one, and then just change the subject. Everyone likes talking about themselves, so ask someone a question. Then before you know it, they've had their first drink and they're not even thinking about you.
Speaker B [00:47:10]:
And I think that's the challenge. A lot of us think probably too highly of ourselves, that we think everyone is thinking about us, everyone cares about what we're doing. Fundamentally, everyone is thinking about themselves. That's it. They might make a big deal about it and you might think because it's your thing, you might feel like it's a massive thing that you're not drinking, but once they've had halfway through their first drink, they won't even remember you're not drinking. And you just carry on as normal and then watch them and you'll be so surprised. You'll be like, oh, my goodness, I was like that. As they start to slur their words or as they start to repeat the same story and have an exit plan, you don't have to one before you even go there, you can say no to something.
Speaker B [00:47:56]:
If you feel a bit too, like it's going to be too much, set the boundary. Say no. You're allowed to say no. You don't have to just go to things because you feel that you need to. People please or whatever, say no. Fundamentally, if you don't want to go, but if you are going, know that you have an exit plan and that you can get home. You're not dependent on someone else to get home and just leave. If you've had enough, just leave.
Speaker B [00:48:20]:
But I do want to say it's so much fun. And you realize that you are fun. You're not boring because you're not drinking and you can actually dance alcohol free. I've done it many times and I've loved it.
Speaker A [00:48:36]:
Me too. I actually say, because people sometimes still, I'll be catching up with an old friend who is assuming that I'm going to be drinking. I tend to like over the years, I've sort of figured, for me, a strategy is to let people know beforehand. Sometimes just as a heads up, I won't be drinking. So it's not an issue on the night. And I say to them, but I promise you, I'm just as much fun as ever. That's kind of my thing. And I've found, because something that I found awkward a couple of times here in Spain.
Speaker A [00:49:04]:
I mean, here I am living. It is drenched in the booth.
Speaker B [00:49:09]:
I lived in Spain for a year.
Speaker A [00:49:12]:
So much part of the culture. And it's interesting because I feel know previously I was in the United States and actually not drinking there was much more socially acceptable and socially normal. It didn't really raise so much surprise from people here. It really does. People are definitely. I feel like it's slightly been more challenging. It's funny, my husband had this conversation, we were talking about this. I said, sometimes I'm like, maybe I should just.
Speaker A [00:49:40]:
But I don't want to. There's not, because people here are so it's that little glass of kava, the little glass of wine. People come to your house and they bring a bottle of wine. That was a big thing for me, was what do I do now? I feel like I want to let people know, before they come to my house. So I say, hey, feel free to bring wine if you would like to drink some. We'll have some here anyway. But just let you know, I don't drink it because there have been a couple of awkward moments where people have brought a bottle of wine and they're opening it. They're like, I can't wait for you to taste.
Speaker A [00:50:10]:
This is such a good wine. And I'm like, I say, I don't drink wine, and I feel it doesn't feel good because someone is. They're trying to give to you, and it's part of their culture, and they're excited. This vineyard that they know or whatever, and it's like, I don't drink wine. And you feel like this sort of, like, massive party pooping sort of thing.
Speaker B [00:50:32]:
But again, it's your choice. And again, everyone has a choice. And I'm not anti drinking, by the way.
Speaker A [00:50:40]:
No, I'm not either. I'm totally happy with everybody drinking.
Speaker B [00:50:45]:
I respect whatever decision people make and whatever they want to. It's absolutely fine. But again, I think we put it on ourselves that we're offending people because we're not drinking. And surely when you'd say that out loud, you think, well, that doesn't make any sense at all, does it? Because if you're vegan or if you're vegetarian, you say, I'm not.
Speaker A [00:51:10]:
I'm also vegetarian. I've been vegetarian since I was 13, so I've navigated that all my life.
Speaker B [00:51:14]:
Exactly. But it's a similar thing, isn't it?
Speaker A [00:51:16]:
I've navigated it all my life.
Speaker B [00:51:18]:
It's a choice. And so, again, if that's your choice, people should just respect people's choice. It's all about social inclusion. It's all about.
Speaker A [00:51:27]:
And I think people do respect it, but it's that thing that they feel like if somebody's bought a really nice bottle of wine that they're excited to share with you, it obviously feels a little bit like there's more for them.
Speaker B [00:51:36]:
There's more for them.
Speaker A [00:51:36]:
Yes. I love that attitude.
Speaker B [00:51:38]:
I love that it's not about you. It's about the other person. So let the other person be the other person. Let them do it and just say, well, I don't drink, but that means there's more for you. Enjoy it. That's it.
Speaker A [00:51:50]:
I love that.
Speaker B [00:51:52]:
Change the. Reframe it.
Speaker A [00:51:54]:
Yes, reframe. Okay, so we'll wrap up in a minute, but I'm just wondering if you have any other thoughts, ideas that you would like to share on this topic?
Speaker B [00:52:02]:
Yeah, I'd like to just say, if you have been thinking, if you've had this sort of nudge or niggle, thinking that maybe not drinking could be helpful in some way, whatever that is, take that break, be brave and give yourself permission. I want to give you permission because I think a lot of people feel they need to. They're waiting on someone to say to them, they're allowed to do this, and it's not an issue, and you haven't hit rock bottom. There's nothing wrong with you. I'm giving you permission today to take that break. And on the other side of it, I promise you, it's magic. And you become so brave, you realize that actually being alcohol free is a superpower and you can do anything. And so I hope that encourages you today.
Speaker A [00:52:55]:
I love that so much, and I could not agree more. And I hope this conversation does inspire someone, somewhere, to just question that relationship, to see things in a slightly different perspective and maybe give it a shot. Because I know I can honestly say giving up alcohol was one of the single best decisions of my life. And my only regret is I didn't do it earlier. And I can honestly say life has got better and better and better since I did it.
Speaker B [00:53:26]:
Absolutely.
Speaker A [00:53:27]:
And that I wouldn't be sitting where I am today if I hadn't done it.
Speaker B [00:53:32]:
Five years is incredible. You've done amazingly, amazingly well.
Speaker A [00:53:36]:
As you know, once you've made the decision, it's kind of done. And it's who you are. It's your identity now.
Speaker B [00:53:44]:
Absolutely. And that's the other thing. That's probably something worth mentioning. A couple of things worth mentioning. The identity piece, that's fundamentally all it is. It's hard to shift your identity. And that's the starting point, really, because if you've always been the prosecco queen or the gin and tonic, the one with the gin and tonic or the hostess with the most s, which involves making drinks for everybody, that's just become your identity. So as soon as you can let go of that and think about values and all of that to help you drive that, that helps.
Speaker B [00:54:16]:
And then finally, you've said that. You said giving up, and I don't like the phrase giving up because you're not giving up anything. You're only gaining. And so that's why I say ditch drinking or stop drinking or whatever, because I don't want people to feel that they're deprived and that they're giving something up. So again, if you're listening, you're not giving up. You're only gaining.
Speaker A [00:54:40]:
I love that. Thank you. And thanks for pointing that out. It's so funny, these little turns of phrases that we don't even notice. Yes. I love that because definitely you are gaining. And that's why I say alcohol free, because I feel free.
Speaker B [00:54:52]:
Agreed.
Speaker A [00:54:52]:
I think ditching the alcohol, you've only got things to gain. And what you gain is your freedom, your peace of mind, and your power and your freedom. So dupe. Thank you so much for being here today. And just, again, cocktail of clarity is your book, just so that people can find you. And your book, thrive alcohol free. So it's one word.
Speaker B [00:55:15]:
Instagram, thrive alcohol free. And my website is thrivelcoholfree.com as well. And my podcast is thrive alcohol free. So it's all the same.
Speaker A [00:55:25]:
Do you have actual programs that people can work with?
Speaker B [00:55:28]:
Yeah. So I have an online course, self paced course, if you want to do that, which is based on a cocktail of clarity, called a cocktail of clarity. And I also have a 21 day kickstart challenge that I do, which is a combination of group coaching and one on one coaching to really help you on your first. It's 21 days. I run those every month. And then I have thrive alcohol free society, which is a signature group coaching program. Everything is based on my thrive af method, which is what I base all my work that I love, that I do one on one coaching as well.
Speaker A [00:56:13]:
Fantastic. So if you're thinking about doing it, I would say check out Dupay's offerings. And. And that would be an ideal way because I say, I definitely feel like when you do this, it's smart to get support because you don't want to be, like, struggling, and support is there for you. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker B [00:56:29]:
Thank you, Diane. Such a wonderful conversation.
Speaker A [00:56:32]:
Really appreciate it.
Speaker B [00:56:33]:
Thanks.
Speaker A [00:56:35]:
All right.
